So torn... Trained monkeys and other random thoughts.

[ellenmillion]

I feel like I opened a can of worms at the EA forums, and I'm too chicken to jump back in and try to fix it. Besides which, I don't know *how* to fix it, or how much of what I see as having gone wrong is because of all the external detail I'm seeing on LJ and other places.

I'm having a really difficult time thinking about doing a second book at this point - I feel like a lot of that community camaraderie that drove the first book is lacking, and I ocassionally feel like a big fat liar about the editorial I put in the back of VoA about what a cohesive group we are.

From a strictly business point of view, the first book was not worth doing. Yes, it's very impressive to say 'we sold out,' but all but maybe 7 of those sales were wholesale to artists. For 100-150 hours of my work, I made about $200 back. Not including the startup costs of becoming a publisher and purchasing the ISBNs. And I think my time estimate there may be low - it was hours of communication with the printers, hours of keeping contributors updated and answering their six zillion emails, hours of layout time, editing bios, checking and double-checking, walking people through the upload process, nagging and nagging for files and signature pages. It was a PILE of work.

Honestly, I'm really proud of myself. It was an impossible task, and I did it on an impossibly short deadline, starting from a knowlege base of next to zero. For that alone, the book was worth doing.

But a second one?

It won't be as much work, this time (maybe), but I also don't have the same community energy buoying me along, either. I feel like there's been a horrible division - started primarily by my opening the discussion about jurying into the second book at the forums.

I could do a (yes, juried, but open to all) book like this just through EMG that would kick ass, I wouldn't have to worry about trying to contract all those new artists, and it would be SO much easier. The lilypad's already set up to take submissions for it, if I set up the project right. I probably will do this in January.

But there was some freshness and community feel to the first book - I really enjoyed that, and would like to capture that again. I don't mind that more people will submit and I'll have to cut some just for space, but... it feels like THEY mind, like it's stirred up a whole pot of dissension and division and sensitivity. When I first posted with the questions about selection for the new book, I was so impressed that everyone was taking things impersonally and thinking 'big picture.' I was wildly, wildly flattered* by the trust expressed. 'Whatever Ellen decides,' most everyone said. But how the heck was I supposed to decide?

In the end (for those of my readers who are not members, but find this sort of morbidly fascinating for whatever reason...), I chose 'maybe.' IF there's too much work to fit neatly and harmoniously into a publication that I can afford and artistically wish to produce, I will leave some artists out, using just one piece per artist first. (The last book, everyone got one in, and some got seconds.) The poll supports my decision - 29 people wanted a jury system of some sort, to 24 people who wanted everyone in. Most of those 29 voted in support of the lowest per-artist allowable. One is even lower than that option, so in many ways, I'm slipping the difference. No one voted to get rid of me and use trained monkeys.

People seemed to think that was fair, but... the bubble has sort of burst. I don't know if some of the long-time artists who argued for quality control will consider that enough, and I don't know if some of the newer artists will submit, too sure that their work will make the cut. The feedback has been much, much less than that for VoA, despite what is actually a larger artist base due to the growth of the forums. I'm concerned that I'll get half a dozen submissions and be left feeling like I've already committed to something I can't do. I still feel like people trust me, for the most part, but that also, there are people who feel like I'm aloof, cliche-ish, or aiming to collect a group of toadying ego-petters.

I don't participate in the forums as well as I should for being all the nice things they call me there - I read sporadically and comment even more sporadically. Meh. I'm sure it comes across as me playing favorites, too - both at this forum and ALL the forums I spend time at. I sometimes have time to comment on everything, but not always, and sometimes I worry that the one person I don't manage to comment back to is going to see all those comments to other people and think that I'm deliberately slighty them. I really, really try not to play favorites, but it's hard not to do so unconsciously. I mean, I'd feel find laying a good filleting critique on Jennie's, or Christines's, or Liiga's work, because I've critiqued their work before, and I know what they can take. I know how best to word things with them, because, gee, we've communicated just a bit before. It's easy to comment back to them. It's much harder to comment back to someone newer, and somedays, I've only got three minutes, not the five or six minutes I'd spend making sure everything I said was exactly how I meant it to be and going over how it COULD be taken. So, guess which things get comments. It probably makes me look very prejudiced.

I don't feel as comfortable with leadership as I think I manage to pull off. I feel like I'm constantly in sticky moral dilemmas and battling between 'I want to make people feel good and encourage them' and 'take the hard business line!' I wonder some days if I really have that hard business edge that it takes to make it.

And don't be fooled - nohow have I made it. People are kind and lots of them know me now, but sales this year have not been so stunningly successful that I'll have a profit to declare for my first year in freelance and free of a job. I'm still struggling - it's just that instead of struggling by myself, I've harnessed myself in with 100 other artists because I have something valuable to offer them. So more people know about me. That's all. No shining success story here, not yet. I wouldn't have been able to do what I've done without a timely settlement from my back injury, or without the unflagging support and belief of Jake.

And oh, MAN is it hard to post stuff these days. I hesitate for long, agonizing moments before posting anything, because people put so much WEIGHT in the things that I say. While that's very nice, and I'm flattered*, it's also very nerve-wracking. And posting outside of my comfortable sphere's of influence becomes difficult, too, because I'm always thinking 'maybe just *these* people like me, and everyone else is more aware of the fact that I'm a big nobody with influencial friends.' It doesn't help that I often feel like I stop conversations to a screeching halt. It makes it LOOK like I'm the Final Word (or think I am), even if I'm not.

Oh well, much rambling here, and lots of random thoughts.

Trained monkeys, man. I REALLY wish they'd all voted for the trained monkeys and made my life easier...


*and scared like a little girl

Comments

[gossamerfaery.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it helps, but I am completely proud of being in the book:) I did it because I love being part of things like that! Honestly, I went into it thinking that not everyone would get in, so I had zero expectations. I was even asking other artists if I was in there when they got their books before me! LOL

I would love it if you did another book through EA or EMG. I'd submit either way:) And if I didn't get in, I would not take it to heart. I figure 5% of an artist's life is hearing "yes", so I'm pretty used to the other 95%! LOL You need to do what is best for you. If you did an EMG book, just say a book will be done if there is enough interest or enough submissions, etc.

I think you a great job! I want to do self-publish a book all about skellies, but I know how much work it is going to be. I applaud you for pulling together so many images, artists, bios, and making a great memory! You are not a fraud in any way silly! I really think the spirit and community of VoA was in that book! All of the rest came later. I guess I didn't know that anyone on the EA thread was taking any of that personally until I started seeing the discussion in LJ. I guess I'm just thick that way! Hehe! Maybe art school critiques made me hard;)

Anyway, when you want to produce a book for me for 50 cents an hour, let me know!! LOL I think you did a great job!! XOXO!!!!!!!!!!

[winterswitchery.livejournal.com]

I think some of the minor negativity that came out of the open thread killed some of my joy about the completion of the VoA project and the prospect of the second book. If you do indeed go ahead with the second project, I may just bow out of the submission process. Sure, the VoA had it's problems, but I'm not sure I liked it when someone said they had to refund a customer because the customer was unhappy with the quality of work. Way to go for making us feel good about the finished product lol

[winterswitchery.livejournal.com]

BTW..I meant to also add that an EMG book would be lovely :) You have some amazing artists on EMG.

[watercolorwitch.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry Ellen I feel I put this extra junk on you this evening. Believe me when I say that you don't have anything to fix. Most of us are aware this has been under the surface for quite sometime over there and we used the book thread to let loose. As far as a second book it really is your baby. You do all the work and take on the expspence it really is up to you. I think that's what alot of us were trying to convey when we said a more selective choice should be made for book #2. You did a wonderful job on the book and I don't think you could do any better I think if we the artists were to supply you with better quality work for your 2nd endevour then it wouldn't be bought by just family and friends but buy more people in the collectors community which would mean more profits and more recognition for you! What ever you decide I fully support you, I hope I didn't bring you to much agro this eve but you must know this issue was brewing long before the book post it is completely not your fault.
*hugs*
Oh and p.s if this child ever comes out and I can get back on a regular paitning sched I will be sending you some portraits soon.
Blessings
xxoo

[uminomamori.livejournal.com]

That whole thread turned into a nightmare. I don't blame you if you don't want to do another because of all this, plus the fact that you have to put a ton of work and your own money into it. If you did another book I might submit something but I don't know that I'd order a lot.

I think an EMG book would be awesome though. The more practice you get maybe you can do books for indiviual artists.

[ellenmillion.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh, don't you dare feel responsible! This has all been stewing in my brain for some time, and was finally ready to come out. I'd tried writing about it several times before and failed miserable, so if anything, I'm grateful that you helped catalyze what I needed to work out.

I'm still thinking those 'hurry up' thoughts at Morgan. :)

[watercolorwitch.livejournal.com]

Ooh that's good. I am still amazed how many of us have been really bothered by the whole thing but not sure what to say.
As far as Morgan goes I sure hope she decides to listen to you becuase she is most certainly ignoring her mommy! This little bug is going to be trouble lol!
Thanks Ellen!
xxoo

[ursulav.livejournal.com]

If it helps any, the first year I freelanced, I made less than six thousand dollars. Gross.

It takes a bit to get up into "hey, this is sorta like what an actual job pays!" money--I'm only barely there myself, four years later, and it wouldn't be that good a job!--but I'm confident that somebody with your skills will be rakin' in the dough in a few years.

Part of that, however, is learning what ISN'T worth your time. And it sounds like something that took--what--three solid 40-hr weeks worth of time, for $200?--just isn't worth it...

[wyrdpainter.livejournal.com]

I'll second what Meredith said, and if it's any consolation to you, I feel a little weird about that sentance I wrote on the Legend of Atlantis. You've got the chops, you've got the ISBN's, and you can bloody well do what you need to make EMG the best darn publisher in the Fantasy Art World!

[arslongu.livejournal.com]

Ellen you are such a great human being, and your post proves this perfectly.

As for the EA thread, I knew I should have stayed out of it, but I honestly thought some one like me, sorta of in the middle between beginner and old hand, might illustrate that many of the true old hands were making a great deal of sense.

I was also frankly ticked completely off that many seemed to be only thinking of themselves, and not your bottom line. That ticked off feeling is my own fault, as is it that I took offense. I have the bottom line of my buisness always in the back of mind 24/7, and like an idiot I assumed everyone else would too, there fore understanding what a risk you were taking on our behalf.

My apologies to you for contributing to the words that helped fan the flames. If this was starting at EA for a long time, I am blissfully unaware of any members saying any thing bad about the others until recently on the EA board during this thread. The veiled resentment was thick in that thread, and went to far out of line towards the end.
I had only heard that the EA board was becomming a bit less personal for several members, due to the dramatic increase in membership.
I never knew that there were hushed whispers of divas, and the "IMHO" high school stuff that seems to have happened some where behind the scenes.

I freely admit that I am guilty of drive by art postings at EA, and other places...cripes I don't have time to sleep a full six hours most nights, so even getting to any forum, or website to post is becomming increasingly difficult for me. Grin...the old proverb...be carefull what you ask for, you just might get it, fits so well...I wanted to go some where with my art, and now I am full speed ahead, and everything else sometimes has to take a back seat, so that I might achieve even loftier goals for myself and my work.

As for the book I think that some sort of jury process is the only way to go, in order to meet market standards, space, and your budget, and I understand completely that making that choice was not easy for you. I think you are stronger than you know, and a better leader than you think you are!!!

[wildoaksart.livejournal.com]

Ellen, surely you know the EA book threads did not springboard all this pro, non-pro, or anything-in-between negativity; the threads only brought to the surface what was there all along and has been repeatedly emphasized via blatant issues like the segregation that began when "pros" formed their own "pros only" forum, ....good enough for just a few self-appointed pros, yet they still feel entitled to dip back down to the rest of our's level too...usually to collect their praises....and that's about it.

The book thread "discussions" have probably got everyone wondering who exactly they are in this mysterious "scheme of things" that has been created, if they didn't think they knew before. Truth is, who is at what level is emphasized, and has been over and over, for a long time, not just at EA....and not by the book thread, but by the treatment and atmoshpere established BY many of the so-called "pros" or examples in our art communities......and they carry that leadership by who follows them and why.

My only wish would be that the book discussions or projects help people examine their own motives and criteria for who they align themselves with and why. I've personally seen an awful lot of people willing to overlook a LOT, or avert their eyes to things they'd never want done to themselves, in the interest of "hanging with someone they perceive as a 'pro'", or one who might help advance their career by mere association of their names or projects. I've even seen people I thought were far above being elitest, dip themselves into it, finding a new word for it, but still it's elitisim pure and simple and they they reek of it! It does kinda make a person, regardless of skill or fame level just wanna crawl away and not associate anymore just for the smell!

Just knowing that I'm likely on the lesser end of the art skill ladder makes me cringe to even think of submitting work for a book knowing there's surely SOMEONE saying "Oh Cripes...not HER and the chance her piece might be next to MINE!" But being realistic and knowing this attitude exists ALSO makes me want to improve!!! :) Not so I "get to" be in a book with that person someday afterall...but so I can someday be in a book, MY book, ALL my own, sans attitudes, sans al the under-the-surface B.S.

The last thing I will ever do is hang on coattails. I do it on my own strengths or not at all. If my art is so weak as to not be worth including, I'd rather spare myself the embarrassment of wasting time (yours and mine) participating at all, or having to field others' isssues over it or stroke their *&%$#*& egos ... The book discussions clarified what I knew was there all along, so it's no big news to me. Being in a book at all, at this point, for me is no huge deal. I doubt it's going to suddenly sky-rocket me to the art moon and make me famous overnight or anything. LOL! Trust me, Im a realist! ;)I was into the VoA book purely as a community project. Period. The "community at large" has now spoken and I am rather glad to know where people's heads are at.... I choose my communities a bit more thoughtfully now though. :)

[frigg.livejournal.com]

The first years are hard. I believe the general tendency for new businesses is that you don't see any profit the first two years.

I'm not operating with a community like you are (and I'm so glad I'm not in your shoes!), but I believe you need to think less of making everyone happy and more of what is good for your business. Executive decisions and all that.

[nixjim13.livejournal.com]

I only just got my copy today in the mail *note to self, thank April* and I have to say that the book as a package is lovely. I was really impressed by the professionalism! And it did what it set out to do - it showcases the art of the community. I think the community shows are fantastic, I enjoy seeing all the diversity that comes out of it. I was actually offline (self-inflicted due to uni commitments) during most of the 'stuff' at EA and when I went back it was a very different place.

I've seen this kind of thing happen at a few different places (Epilogue to name one ;) ) and it can't really be helped. People grow, people change, personalities clash - that's life. To be honest, I like EA primarily because of the knowledge & the people, the art is a nice bonus - though generally I see a lot of it here on lj and at AFAE :). I don't get much time to trawl for paintings any more *sigh*

On a sidenote... not having a go at you Ellen, this is hopefully taken as a critique rather than a criticism, but the colour shift on my piece (and a few others - probably been mentioned at EA I know) were really, really obvious. I even did a test to change to CMYK since I probably forgot, and there was very little noticable difference. And I've bought stuff from you before which matched exactly so I figure it's the printer you went through. That was probably the only disappointment for me and probably something to watch out for next time. I'm hoping there's a next time, whether it be EMG or EA :)

[valdary.livejournal.com]

Hi Ellen,
Due to lack of equiptment and family events this year I haven't yet had the opportunity to join EMG etc.
however, at various times I have been on the committee of a 50's Rock n' Roll club, secretary of a tenants association, and county contact for a home education organisation, plus various other projects along the way.
So, what I can tell you is, that this kind of "cliquey" or "anti cliquey", "personal politics" kind of spat is in no way down to you and how you have done something. It is something that happens sooner or later in any growing group that involves people who passionately care about what they are involved in. The only organisations I've been involved in where it didn't happen have drifted apart due to lack of interest.
Stick to your own best judgement, second guessing yourself will just make you cross as well.
It may happen that a few of the most upset will wander off and form their own organisation, in which case they'll find out how much work they've let themselves in for.
I've always made it a statement of policy that I will speak to "anyone", because you always get one or two silly people that say "If you speak to her you're not my friend"
Its your baby Ellen, do it your way, and try not to let people upset you.

[baba-studio.livejournal.com]

Publishing books is HARD - in some ways it's the hardest business of all to get started in. I can chat to you more about it email if you like - although I guess you know all the ups and downs now.

We are still in the process of evolving into a regular publisher - i.e. in the process of increasingly publishing things that we only have an editorial role in. And you know what? I'm honestly nervous about it and sometimes not sure I want to do it because I imagine us getting to the point at which we don't have time to do any of our own visual work - and the whole point of making the investment and taking the huge risks of building this studio was to do OUR work, not principally to edit other people, no matter how great they are.

I suppose what I'm saying it that book publishing can take you to some odd places that you might not expect - for good or bad. To really be taken seriously, arguably you have to get into the whole international distribution thing, and at that point you are talking about horrific levels of investment (distributors only want to take books that are part of a planned series of publications - they don't like "one-offs" or even "two-offs")

I don't know what I'm advising really - in the end I think I'm just sympathising! You did brilliantly to get one book out, I agree entirely that you have to think seriously before doing a second.

[flasher.livejournal.com]

*hug*
Sorry you ended up feeling like a referee over there. I know some people were really hurt by the critism aimed at the artwork in VoA but I don't think it was out of line. If my art was in there, I'd want to know that a customer demanded thier money back because they were unhappy with the book. Just hearing the positive doesn't get you very far. I think the ... sensibilities over at EA are a little more tender than I'm used to. I should have been clued in when I realised that Epilogue was a bad word over there.

I think going through EMG to create a book would be your best bet as a publisher. Just warn people when you do the art call that it will be juried however you choose and you'll avoid most of this mess with people being afraid of being left out. Also, hey, we're already under contract. Less paperwork means more art. I'd certainly contribute.

I do have to agree with artoftheempath here ... if you want to be serious art book publisher, you should probably be careful with the vanity press projects. I'm not saying don't do them but you don't want them to be 90% of your publications. Get a good reputation as a publisher who has well made books full of well made art and even the "community" projects like VoA will sell a bit better just on name recognition.

No one is going to be angry with you if you decide not to do another EA book. Disappointed, probably, but not angry. We know you poured a ton of time and money into the project for very little return. We can't expect you to do it again. Also, no one says you have to decide now, today, and that your decision has to stick around forever. Put it off till next summer or the summer after that. Wait until you aren't so burnt out and the arguements have died down and then revisit it. Who knows, maybe you'll forget how hard it was :P

[flasher.livejournal.com]

Would you have prefered to have never known that someone wanted their money back? I'm sure there was probably a better place to let people know than during that discussion but I do think it needed to said at some point.

Its sad that it happened at all but I think its better for the artists to know then to go on thinking everyone who bought a book absolutely loved it.

[flasher.livejournal.com]

Ugh! Part time freelancing and I'm only pulling in about 1/4 of that ... just enough to break even with shipping costs and art supplies. Somehow I don't think I'll be going full time any time soon.

[winterswitchery.livejournal.com]

Myself, personally, would rather have not known, no.

[winterswitchery.livejournal.com]

That had to be the most civil nightmare thread I have ever read though. I used to help moderate community forums with loads of people (many of them like.. 14-20) and good lord..flame wars at least once a month -_-

[jenelycam.livejournal.com]

I'm late, as usual!!! HOLY HERA Ellen, I never even thought of you during this whole debate...as far as starting anything. I think the members who got caught up in it, did so at their own undertaking, it had NOTHING to do with you sweetie!!!

I'm very flattered/honored and feel so lucky to have been published, but I agree with some of the others, that your bottom line comes first. This has to be worth it for YOU. Its YOUR project. YOU volunteered to make it your baby. I would love to do a second book, and am more than willing to be juried in or out. I would be disappointed, of course, not to make it, but I would just work that much harder the next time, if there were one. I honestly loved the community feel of the first book. I love the feeling of camraderie I felt with all the artists, pro or amateur or emerging or dayjob, hobbyist or whatever... And this whole pro v. amateur has been debated on so many forums/chat groups and whatnot at so many different times...

Do what's best for YOU!!! I'll stand behind you no matter what you decide!!!

*SUPER HUGE GIGANTIC HUMUNGO FAERIE HUGS*

[aredhelsforest.livejournal.com]

*überhugs*

I am rather oblivious to what is going on at EA at all, because with me as well, my day needs an additional four? five hours? but dearest Ellen... if you don't want to do the second book, then don't. =) And that's all I have to say, realy. *more hugs*

[uminomamori.livejournal.com]

Yeah you're right it could always be way worse:)

[wildoaksart.livejournal.com]

Re: BOOKS

The first book is something we all entered into with varying goals..goals that have really changed with the prospect of a second!

Ellen...you didn't know exactly what you were getting yourself into, you had a learning curve for the actual work of it, as well as for the cost/profit aspect which you couldn't really know ANY of till you actually jumped-in and DID it! HUGE "LEARNING" project! You've now done it, you can put numbers and ratios into perspective and now look at book publishing with that knowledge. It would be crazy to think or expect you to approach a future publication without applying what you've learned and adjusting inclusion requirements accordingly, and maybe extract some commitment and push from people on how they plan to market the darn thing! It's simple business. People who don't learn from what they've done are doomed to beat their head on a wall that exasperates them sooner or later. What can be learned from this first book experience?

As artists, I really DO believe it started as a "community project" and future sales were thought of relatively little! You talked about taking it to DragonCon and we all talked about marekting it on our sites. That was all the talk I heard about it and I followed those threads closely. But we've all NOW stopped to ponder what we've learned in the project and how a book can be a useful tool to market ourselves, or not, how it makes us each "look". It's good all the "talk" has come out. I've tried to see both sides of the situation and even argued on both sides of the fence on that Next Book thread at EA for the sake of asking "Where ARE we with this?"

It probably was a very natural progression for more accomplished artists to come to the place of thinking/questioning what a book project "does" for them career-wise. And part of that questioning makes it unavoidable for them point out quality and hwo that affects their standing.

We shouldn't really be surprised this happened...it's what we/you do with this info. and how you channel it into something productive, or something separate yet equally worthy, or something...I dunno! "What good can come from all this?" is the only direction I want to think in...to go back to the negative ways of thinking of it only wears us all down and tears us apart.... Maybe we were torn apart already. But I just do not personally have the time to waste on all the negativity anymore.

So yes..you're in a unique position Ellen, but I think, with thought, you're also in a position to see through the crap and find an answer that is not only financially beneficial, but also human relations beneficial....and ultimately gets back to the core of what draws us all together...ART!

[dewgeist.livejournal.com]

Well, I do not have the strongest leg to stand on here as I wasn't involved in any of this. That being said...
Appoint yourself 'benevolent dictator' for your next publishing foray. Artists (me anyway) put our hearts, hopes, dreams (nightmares)- into our work. We do not necessarily do our clearest thinking when discussing our creations. So, someone needs to be the gate-keeper and stay the course. Respecting the effort you put forth to accomplish the envisioned project is part of the deal.

[dewgeist.livejournal.com]

and...sorry, I think you win over trained monkeys every time :)

[ellenmillion.livejournal.com]

The color was awful. Worst part of the whole thing, and I thought yours was one of the ones that suffered the most. :(

I don't at all mind that you tell me, and the GOOD news is, I isolated the problem (it was in the compilation of the pdf, and at MY end), and can fix it.

[nixjim13.livejournal.com]

Ah well, I've had colour shifts before, but generally it's been too yellow or too pink, lol.

Glad the problem was figured out though!