Parents, and anyone who was once a minor!

[ellenmillion]

So... contributors are Torn World are currently restricted to 18+. There is the potential for actual monetary income and adult topics come up on the forums, particularly. (Nothing earth-shattering, but 'what are sexual norms' and 'what is considered ethical' are going to be talked about frankly. It's also hard not to type the dirty words when you're trying to figure out what the dirty words in your story might be...)

Now, my initial research on the topic shows that minors may enter legal contracts, BUT that they have the option at any time (until they are 18) to shrug that contract off. (The idea being that they can't make sound judgments until they are 18, so they get a free pass.)

My question to you, if you are a parent: if your 15-17 year-old approached you with a waiver for a creative community, would you sign it? It would let you know what Torn World was, where to find more information about it, what kind of material we published, what our payment terms are.

It would require agreement to allow us to publish their work non-exclusively on the Internet, with standard payment terms.

It would request a contact email for the guardian.

It would optionally allow the minor access to the contributor forums, where topics of an edgy nature may be discussed frankly. (Elsewise, the minor would be restricted to a tamer series of forums where such topics are not allowed.)

It would invite the guardian to be involved in Torn World and view for themselves what was happening there.

What would you think, if you received a waiver like this?

My question to you, as a minor or someone who was one once: Would this be such an amazing pain in your ass that you wouldn't want to do it? Would you understand the cautious business-end of such a requirement and cheerfully do so to be part of a kick-ass community and maybe even make some money? Would you want some other intermediary option where your work was reserved for members-only, you weren't allowed to collect money for it, and you couldn't participate in all of the forums? Would you fake your age or the waiver in order to join anyway? What would YOUR parents have done?

And...

What other options can you think of to allow minors to get involved without opening up a can of worms legally?

Comments

[ht.livejournal.com]

As a minor once upon a time: would I understand the business end of it? No, not really. But then I was a pretty trusting and naive minor, full of my own insecurities and what-nots. Would I want to make some money from it? Hell yeah. Would I fake my age if my parents didn't want me to join/ didn't know I wanted to join/ didn't understand and I was hellbent on joining? Yup. Would I have kept it a secret at that point? Yup.

But then again, I come from a generation where my parents didn't really understand fantasy. It's only with the advent of major films like Harry Potter, LOTR and (ugh) Twilight that parents today are getting more savvy about the genre.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>My question to you, as a minor or someone who was one once: Would this be such an amazing pain in your ass that you wouldn't want to do it? <<

No. When I was in high school I did a few writing-related things that required parental permission.

>> Would you understand the cautious business-end of such a requirement and cheerfully do so to be part of a kick-ass community and maybe even make some money?<<

Probably not cheerfully; I don't like this society's rules much. But if I wanted something badly enough, I'd jump through the hoops.

>> Would you want some other intermediary option where your work was reserved for members-only, you weren't allowed to collect money for it, and you couldn't participate in all of the forums? <<

Yes. I like having options; most people do. Which option would be more appealing would depend on what I wanted.

>>Would you fake your age or the waiver in order to join anyway? <<

If I want something badly enough and the "expected" approach is untenable for me, I'll cheat. But it's a last resort. I believe younger generations have a different and probably more flexible perception of that. *ponder* Then again, I'm not a close match for my own generation, so I'm not a good benchmark in general.

>>What would YOUR parents have done?<<

*cough* Shortly before I turned 18, a comic series I was reading suddenly went to adult status. My mother bought my the next issue ... took it out of the bag while standing at the counter, flipped through it, and said, "I had to drive an HOUR to buy you THIS? But YOU write things more explicit than this!"

Not-so-ex-hippies. You do the math.

They're probably not good benchmarks, either, though.

>>What other options can you think of to allow minors to get involved without opening up a can of worms legally?<<

Create a separate area for them, kind of like the Northerners have promise beads so the kids can practice. This is a common solution, and it's both popular and effective. In our particular context, we could encourage our younger contributors to help create the "youth cultures" in Torn World. We've laid down the important social frameworks (adulthood tests, school years, etc.) and they could add things like fads, games, dating customs, etc. These would be topics of interest to young readers/writers and would add realism.

There are going to be some parts of the Forum that are just not places where it's legally safe for minors to be, though.

It helps that we already have a content rating system.

Based on my experiences in publishing, minors can use the same contracts as adults; they just have to have a parent or legal guardian cosign with them. (I don't think it matters whether money is involved or not: it's required for publication, because that's a legal transfer of rights.) A fair number of publisher contracts, especially in magazines, have a line for that. I recommend that you get the standard Torn World agreement cosigned like that, at minimum.

Re: Thoughts

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

I like the "youth culture" idea. :)

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to hear such an insightful parent chiming in!

I suggested the youth culture approach because I think one cause of the generation gap is adults' tendency to shut out adolescents from society. But young people need a chance to do things that are both safe and important. So I'm always watching for opportunities to encourage age-appropriate participation.

[ankewehner.livejournal.com]

I think one thing that would be important for the more worried/controlling parents would be laying out exactly why part of the material is not public, lest they think that filter is only/primarily to hide adult material. (I guess if their first thought is "fantasy? they are satanists!" there's no saving them.)

The "invite the guardian" bit... Would you offer a free membership for a limited time? Because otherwise that would set me on edge, "those people just want my/our money".

As a minor, it really depends how much interest I had in the whole Torn World thing. I might have been more likely to go "I'll join if I'm still interested when I'm 18". (I really don't like doing stuff like lying about my age. I'd have to change it EVERYWHERE and remember to never tell anyone why real age, and it's just too much stress.)
The intermediate option you mention sounds like a good idea to me, particularly if it includes the possibility of getting the stories published and paid for once they turn 18.

[ryokomusouka.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: I lived on fantasy as a kid, and my parents tried to keep me away from more explicit stuff. However, they bought me a subscription to OMNI when I was 17, so there you go. The following are just rambling thoughts...

As a parent, I've been fairly liberal in exposing my kids to the "adult" side of life. My theory is that they need to be able to deal with it without getting all flabbergasted by it. However, I appreciate when sites and communities try to create a "safe" place for minors to hang out.

I don't much appreciate GAIA Online, for example, where the lunatics run the asylum. TinierMe, however, is tightly moderated by adults, and feels much more friendly. I feel much more comfortable letting my teenagers wander freely there.

I'm not at all familiar with your Torn World, so I can't speak specifically toward your content, but if it's no worse than, say, Mercedes Lackey or Neil Gaiman, I personally wouldn't have a problem signing a waiver. I do try to take a look around a site that would require one, though, and I appreciate honesty.

As a kid, I probably would have been offended by needing to get my parents' permission because I knew I'd likely not get it. But that's only my personal situation. I know my fifteen year old would LOVE to find an honest way to make a few bucks, since no one will hire her until she's sixteen.

Neopets gets around these sorts of issues with even younger kids by not allowing underaged ones access to chat, forums or gambling-style games. Will kids cheat the system? You bet. You just need to be sure to cover yourself legally by stating that you're not responsible if someone lies on an application, and that you'll terminate any agreement based on such a lie as soon as you find out.

[kittrel.livejournal.com]

As a kid, I would have done the paperwork and tried to get my parents to sign it. I probably would not have fully understood why paperwork was so important, but I'd get the gist of 'need parental consent on paper for legal reasons'. I don't think my parents would have signed it, and I know they wouldn't have bothered to go online to check it out. But I think parents are getting more liberal nowadays and the good ones are trying to be more involved in their kids' lives and probably would take the time to research the site and sign it! If you've all the stuff on one page for the kid/parent to read, well, the kid may just skim it but I'm sure the parent would appreciate all the info being in one place so they can understand why things are considered adut and they'd appreciate the openness and honesty.

I MAY have tried to fake my age, but I was pretty much a big chicken for that kind of thing. There are systems to verify age, I know SecondLife implemented one maybe a year ago? That option might be really expensive though! I have no idea.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

As a parent, yes, I'd let the kid join. As a minor, I might understand the legal necessity but I'd probably consider it too much of a pain in the ass to bother unless it was something I desperately desperately *desperately* wanted to do.

[jenny_evergreen]

As a parent, I'd check it out, and, in this case, certainly agree to it.

As a minor, it'd probably be too much of a hassle. I would probably not fake my age, because I was a cautious kid, but I would if I had friends who were, thanks to the safety in numbers concept.

Short on ideas this morning!

As a parent - and used-to-be-minor

[lisacree.livejournal.com]

Parent - I probably wouldn't sign the form because the discussions in the forums would definately put me off and there is just too much on there to keep an eye on.

Child - Knowing that you live a million miles away and that any money would go into a Paypal account anyways I wouldn't even get my parents to sign it - for all they know, I am writing and drawing just out of interest.

BUT- I do think that you can start a 15-17 year old part of Torn World for just their age group, maybe a part which was "frozen in time" and only people of that age can live and write. That way anyone who wants can join and they would probably stay when they get to 18 years old.

[natsunekko.livejournal.com]

As I parent of boys in that age bracket, I would probably say no, they may not join. This is largely because I am trying to limit thier access to porn (yes, I know, it's a fight I'll lose), and I have been on lots of RP forums where things devolve into explicit, play-by-play sex scenes. If I wasn't a member of your site, I would not know if you were monitoring to avoid that stuff, or if it was acceptable on the forum. So, if I got a contract of "nothing worse than rated-R" than I'd b okay with them joining.

- Would this be such an amazing pain in your ass that you wouldn't want to do it?
Yes, but I have a very low tolerance for hoop-jumping.

- Would you understand the cautious business-end of such a requirement and cheerfully do so to be part of a kick-ass community and maybe even make some money?
No. As an adult, I would, but when I was a kid, everything looked like a conspiracy to keep me from finding the FUN.

- Would you want some other intermediary option where your work was reserved for members-only, you weren't allowed to collect money for it, and you couldn't participate in all of the forums?
I like this idea the best.

- Would you fake your age or the waiver in order to join anyway?
Yes. I did so regularly to get comics.

- What would YOUR parents have done?
My parents didn't strongly sensor entertainment. They would not have objected to my joining a non-porn adult site. HOWEVER, that said, they also would not have been willing to jump through hoops for me to join it.