More politics

[ellenmillion]

I hate politics because it divides people. You've got to take sides, and no one seems content to gather facts and make choices quietly by themselves... it always seems to turn into them versus us, where people are either afraid to voice their opinions because they're afraid that people will judge them, or they are so quick to voice their opinions that it feels belligerent.

If I told you guys that I voted against the ban on killing wolves from helicopters, would you judge me by that, or would you judge me by the way I've treated you for who knows how many years? Would you remove your artwork from EMG if you knew that I disagreed with the classification of polar bears as endangered? Would you consider that I'm not environmentally aware by these opinions, even though I religiously re-use even my trash, and live a lifestyle more green than a lot of hippies and a lot more conscious than any politician? Do you think that I'm a horrible person because I disagree with your definition of life and think that even if you're right, it can be okay to kill? Would you stop buying from EMG because I voiced these opinions in my livejournal?

I don't have many illusions about wildlife. Every day, I have fewer illusions about people.

I'm curious. Would you rather keep your illusions about the people whose opinions you've not heard, or would you rather know, risking disagreement? Does disagreement equate to losing respect?

Comments

[baxaphobia.livejournal.com]

I definitely have my political opinions. Do they have an effect on my friendships? Not unless someone launches a personal attack because they do not agree with me. Who am I to tell someone what to believe? Self righteous opinions can be just as damaging as apathy.

[ursulav.livejournal.com]

*shrug* If you told me that, then--well, I'd sigh heavily, gaze briefly at the ceiling, and then I'd probably go back to business as usual, because we've worked together Lo These Many Moons and good business types are hard to find.

Probably this makes me a bad person for not following my convictions to the cold and bitter end, but I don't see how pulling all my art from EMG would do a damn thing to help polar bears, even if we did disagree on their listing. I admit, I'm not a great liberal in many regards, and plenty of my readers have it all over me in courage of their convictions, but eh.

...mind you, I might donate the next block of my EMG profits to polar bear conservation, to try and salve my guilty conscience. *grin*

[renatus.livejournal.com]

^ This.

There are a number of people who I respect and even love who hold opinions that I find absolutely ridiculous and a bit stupid (this includes my much beloved grandparents, who I love and trust absolutely but who are on a need to know basis about huge parts of who I am, like my queerness). In order to preserve everyone's sanity, I don't poke at these opinions unless it somehow comes up. I can do a lot more good writing books and essays and raising awareness that way than I can in getting into arguments. Especially being as I don't have the energy to get into most arguments in the first place...

[hawkamaka.livejournal.com]

Well said. We all have opinions and I have less respect for those that don't hold onto theirs. What a boring world we would have if we all thought alike. Having said that, I have no tolerance for hate and those that spew hate I surely would never buy from or be friends with. Stating your mind about politics and your opinions is your right. Having said that, if someone gives you their opinion and knowledge to sway you to think their way is something you should always be open minded to. I learn something new everyday and listening to others is the best way; you need not agree but should always consider what they say. If I threw a can in the trash instead of the recycling would you take me off your friend's list? We all have our ways, but for us to force anyone to live as we do is ridiculous. Stay true to what you believe...having said that...I just have to joke and say Palin?????? I'm teasing, you don't know me but I am very sarcastic, but still not fond of her. That shouldn't matter to you. We can agree to disagree and hope for a better world, as that is something we all should wish for.

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

I like knowing where people stand on issues, but only because that makes it easier for me to avoid offending them unintentionally or accidentally stepping on one of their squids. People are entitled to their squids (Lord knows I have my own, like everybody else) I just...like to avoid them wherever possible. Squid ink is dreadfully difficult to get out of upholstery.

I'm with you on hating politics. To preserve my own sanity, I've mostly had to adopt an attitude of LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU about it. Because the alternative is being unhappy, but to no purpose. *shrug*

[yasha-chan.livejournal.com]

Disagreement doesn't = losing respect. I guess the breakdown occurs with politics when it comes to legislating morality and such. I don't care what people personally believe-- you can think being homosexual is a sin or whatever. That will bother me, yes, but I won't say anything about it if it's not brought up.

However, that changes when people try to make laws about shit that doesn't concern them. It's no one else's business what a woman does with their body; you can hate abortion all you want and never ever have one, but you have no right to say no one gets to. If two guys or two girls or a guy and a girl marry each other, it has 0 effect on your life. Trying to tell me that I don't deserve to be the same as everyone else because *you* don't believe I am is pretty fucked up, really.

There's a difference between having beliefs and trying to force them on others. When it infringes on my rights, I'll be god damn pissed; you better believe it. But I'm not pissed you hold the beliefs; disappointed? yes. Sad? yes. Do I hate you? no. But I will fight you and people like you who think that what you believe should be law. People should be free to live their lives, there will never be a standard that works for everyone. As long as people aren't hurting each other, it's none of my business what they do, as long as they keep it to themselves.

On legislating morality

[amanda-now.livejournal.com]

All politics would be doomed to break down by your statements then because all legislation is based on morality. Morality encompasses more than abortion and homosexuality. What legislation is not grounded in morality? I'm hard pressed to think of any.

Morality is not about religion nor does it originate from one in particular. Morality is a code of conduct a society uses to govern itself, so all rules and laws set forth by a governing body onto its citizens are based on morality.

[rosaleendhu.livejournal.com]

I've enjoyed your journal for being a politics-drama-free zone. That said, I am curious about your views and I think you'll present them in a reasonable manner if you decide to tell us.

[eregyrn.livejournal.com]

I'm curious. Would you rather keep your illusions about the people whose opinions you've not heard, or would you rather know, risking disagreement? Does disagreement equate to losing respect?

No, disagreement doesn't necessarily equate to losing respect. That's because the important thing (to me) isn't just the opinions themselves, but knowing how someone *arrived* at a different position/stance to one that you yourself hold.

If someone I respect holds an opinion/stance that, at first glance, contradicts what I think is "right", then my first instinct is to ask (respectfully), "so, why do you think that?" And that is not necessarily trying to force you (or anyone) into a defensive position. "Why?" isn't the same thing as "How can you think that???"

If you voted to allow the shooting of wolves from helicopters, why yes, I'm very curious as to what it is about your understanding of the issue that led you to cast your vote in that way. My understanding of the issue leads me to think that it's wrong; but by asking you about it, I'm allowing for the fact that your understanding may contain angles that I am unaware of.

That doesn't mean that you might not explain your position, and still fail to convince me that my opposite position is wrong.

But that was basically what was behind my questioning of your previous post. *To me*, Sarah Palin looked like a puzzling disaster of a choice for VP. But you, someone whom I respect (and know somewhat, although I don't pretend that knowing someone through mutual participation in fandom is a very deep kind of knowing), posted that you were glad about it, and I know that you live in the state of which she is governor. So I think it's pretty natural to ask you to explain; to want to know what information you have that I don't.

And I'm glad you gave us that info. It doesn't wind up making me feel any better about Palin as VP. It's still a bit puzzling to me (including your regard for her). But I respect your desire not to be a deep political wonk and get into even a respectful debate on a more detailed level.

[laken-steeljaw.livejournal.com]

I'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that. It doesn't mean I have less interest in you or your business, it's simply a differing of opinions. :>

I'm with you- I hate discussing politics. I generally try to just keep quiet, find facts, and cast my vote. Problem is it seems overly difficult to find unbiased facts. Politics seems to have become nothing more than a huge mud-slinging competition.

I am curious as to why you hold your opinions on wolf hunting and the polar bear status. I am very much against predator hunting, but if someone can deliver to me facts that justify it for the great good, my mind can always be changed. There are very few things where my opinion is set in stone. Since you live in Alaska and have far more contact with these creatures than I do, I would love to know your reasonings on your decision. Again, it's one of those things where you can't find any unbiased facts- ranchers say one thing and PETA thinks everyone who has a pet is evil. x.x

[chamois-shimi.livejournal.com]

I'm always curious to know people's reasons - if they don't have their own reasons but are only following, for example - what their parents told them, what their priest/pastor tells them, what Oprah says, what the Party line is ... well, that's not as interesting to me. I want to know *why*.

I'm not comfortable with real conflict, but I do like discussion. It's important to know when enough is enough, and when I have to just agree to disagree with someone. Or knowing what topics to NEVER ever bring up with certain people (religion with my mother, for example).

Growing up with a very liberal mother and a very conservative father taught me that politics doesn't really mean anything when it comes to relationships, as long as you don't *let* it mean anything.

Some issues are stronger with me than that - I don't think I would want to be friends with someone who runs over cats on purpose no matter how interesting they are otherwise, for instance. On the other hand, one of my good friends is a big William Shatner fan and I can't at all comprehend it but well, some things are just like that, and we just get on with our lives. :)

[metasilk.livejournal.com]

Growing up with a very liberal mother and a very conservative father taught me that politics doesn't really mean anything when it comes to relationships, as long as you don't *let* it mean anything.

As you've just described me and my partner, it eases some of my anxieties about the effect we'll have on our son!

[sister-bluebird.livejournal.com]

I'd be curious to know why, if either of those things were true. If I knew that we strongly disagreed on some political topic, I might avoid talking about to prevent arguments. Certainly wouldn't pull my art (not that there's much up there), because the two things aren't related.

[tonithegreat.livejournal.com]

Okay, delurking here to say: I'm a fan who would rather see a little bit of those kinds of opinions here, even if I disagree. Otherwise I wouldn't have started following your LJ, which looks like it is intended to be a nice mix of business and personal and art things. I mean, if people don't want to see your personal opinions about stuff, they can follow you online in places other than your journal.

I disagree with the political views of a lot of artists whose work and business models I admire. But if they are expressing their political views in a way that seems appropriate to the forum where they express them, I still like to read about those views in those forums.

It's a complex world. Thinking people that I admire tend to have complex solutions for political problems, and the more moving pieces these solutions have, the greater the chances are that I won't agree with all of the peices, and that I will vehemently disagree with some of them. That doesn't mean I can't still get something out of trying to understand the person's worldviews.

[jemstone.livejournal.com]

Disagreements do not equate to losing respect, at least not in my book.

I may disagree with someone on something, but respect is something that must be earned - and it can only be earned through deed and example where I come from (or at least where I like to think I come from).

I'm more likely to respect someone I disagree with if their opinions are based in thought and examination than I am to respect someone who agrees with me on everything I say just because they feel it necessary. At least if I'm disagreeing with someone, we can try to reach a middle ground. Sycophants have no middle ground.

I actually had a conversation with someone yesterday about how I have frequently voted across party lines based on how good a job I think someone will do.

He was floored. Stunned, actually. The entire concept was foreign to him. Here I am, a registered Democrat, saying that I would vote for someone who was a Republican if I thought they could do a better job based on their experience, platform, and list of stated goals. This is the same guy who blows a head gasket when I tell him that even though I approved of Bill Clinton politically, I felt that morally he was a skeeze. Say what you will about the man's personal life - politically, he at least tried to do everything he promised he would. Not a lot of politicians in America can say that.

This concept, though. Respecting someone, even if you disagree with them. It was foreign to him. Completely and totally. I tried to explain that I used to respect Senator McCain, but that I lost that respect when he went from being the Party Firebrand to just another W-Quoting-Toady. How could I respect McCain? Was I insane?

Respect has less to do with agreement, for me, and more to do with principles, actions, goals, and carry-through. And it bugs me that so many people equate agreement and mutual alignment with respect.

[metasilk.livejournal.com]

And it bugs me that so many people equate agreement and mutual alignment with respect.

Me too. I think -- this is me watching my parents came-of-age-in-the-late-60s for datapoints -- it's hard to be respectful of differences in daily practice when where you thought you were going feels (suddenly) so far away; when disappointment, fear, and time-running-out are larger in your heart than curiosity, stubbornness, energy, and commitment.

Not to mention the stories we are told, we tell ourselves, about how and when to practice respect in disagreement and conflict.

[winterswitchery.livejournal.com]

It depends on the disagreement. I lose respect for people when I disagree with a harmful lifestyle choice (like my parents for smoking). But it's their choice, and I still love them.

Other than that, I subscribe to apathy and try to really not care.

[marina-bonomi.livejournal.com]

*Does disagreement equate to losing respect?*

Not at all, I don't think it is even *possible* to agree on everything with another person all the time no matter how close one is.
What matters to me is that the disagreement is mutually respectful, I've friends I enjoy lively debates with, others with which we have agreed to talk about everything *but* a couple of topics and others with which I share my basic philosophy, and it is not a given that my closest friends are those in the latter category.
What would make me lose respect of somebody would be the manner of the disagreement, if one comes to insults or personal attacks, that's it for me.

I admit though that not having had an answer to my PM, had me ask myself this same question about *your* opinion on possible disagreements , Ellen...

[ellenmillion.livejournal.com]

Not replying to PMs is about my scatter-brained lateness on replying to PMs (and emails) - nothing more, I promise! :)

[valdary.livejournal.com]

If I fell out with everyone I disagreed with I'd have no friends at all. As for Polar Bears its a trigger point thing, they may not be endangered by numbers but if the ice goes it could go very quickly, and with this year seeing the first man swim in clear water at the North Pole, and hearing reports of more ice shelves calving, it is something that does concern me, There have been reports of polar bear remains being found inside sharks and investigations are taking place as to whether this was from predation (polar bears being forced to swim further) or scavenging

[kittrel.livejournal.com]

Some people are more impartial than others.

If people have different opinions from me I'm not going to hate them or avoid them or anything just because of that. I won't even stop being their friend, most cases! I will probably try to avoid certain lines of conversation just to keep things comfortable for both parties.

But there are people a lot more radical and impartial who WOULD do those things. Example off the top of my head is PETA who will shun a business and try to start an embargo because of someone's beliefs.

I like to think that most people think that type of person is just a little bit loopy. :P


As for rather knowing or not knowing... I don't have a preference at all. If someone is afraid I'll disagree and so they keep quiet that's fine. If someone wants to speak their opinion that's cool too (and probably better for them than keeping too many things 'secret'), but I'll probably keep quiet. I'm terribly non-confrontational. :3

[steppinrazor.livejournal.com]

orca_girl pretty much sums up anything I'd have to say.

I don't lose respect for people when they have political views. I only lose respect when they make specious claims and fail to educate themselves, or when they just parrot what they've been told (for instance, my aunt, who I already mentioned in my LJ).

I like discussing politics, specifically because it opens me up to other viewpoints. I'm glad you posted about Palin, because you're an Alaskan, you have a unique viewpoint (I don't agree about her, but it's good to know, anyhow). I'm incredibly curious as to why you support aerial wolf hunts, and don't think polar bears should be listed. But while I may disagree vehemently, I'm not going to lose respect for you either way, because I know your opinions are educated and come from experience.

Bottom line; don't feel bad about having political opinions!

[penmage.livejournal.com]

If you don't mind, I am going to link to this post, because powerful feelings on important issues aside, this is an important piece of perspective.

[ellenmillion.livejournal.com]

I don't mind at all. :)

[laylalawlor.livejournal.com]

Well, I think other people have said most of what I would have said anyway. *g* I don't have a single problem with other people voicing their opinions, and I have a lot of friends with whom I have huge disagreements on various topics. (Some of my closest friends are pro-life, for example; I'm very emphatically not, but I respect their right to feel that way.)

But, to add something, it's doubly tricky when we mix business with fun, like we both do in our LJs. It's not only our personal journal but also the public face that we present to the world - to potential publishers, customers, employers, etc. And I think that's generally tended to make me reticent about posting a whole lot that's controversial - lately I'm starting to be more up-front about my opinions in my blog, but I used to keep all of that out of it. I've been caring less about it lately because it's more important to me to speak up about the things that are important to me than to try to do the more "business-aware" thing by keeping those opinions out of my blog. But, uh, even though in theory I'm all for speaking out and I don't generally hold other people's opinions against them, I don't tend to walk that walk myself.

And something that keeps coming up for *me* in the whole Palin thing is how differently we - Alaskans - perceive a lot of issues than the mainstream, more urbanized Western world does. Like you, I live the most environmentally-aware lifestyle that I can (I re-use everything, share one car with my husband, shop at the farmer's market...) but I also support hunting, and fishing, and subsistence living in general - and laws that make that kind of lifestyle possible. On issues like the aerial wolf hunt, it's easy for someone who shops for their food at the grocery store to make a moral judgment on that - a lot harder to do that when you actually know indigenous people and others who rely on wild-hunted meat, especially with food prices as high as they are here.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

Everyone's opinion on the world evolves. When I hear people viciously defending their opinions, I just think to myself, "We'll see what they think in ten years. Or twenty. Or thirty."


But me, I don't find it fruitful to discuss politics. Almost ever.

[curvature.livejournal.com]

Nope, I wouldn't judge you based on your politics at all, unless you were doing something really far out like supporting suicide bombers or something. That might make me raise an eyebrow or two ;)

I am curious though - why do they kill wolves from helicopters? Are they killing livestock or something, or is it like fur trade type stuff?

Also, I don't quite get the polar bear thing. What's wrong with listing them as endangered?

Um, that's all really.

[marukka.livejournal.com]

Alright, we're not exactly close, but I thought this discussion was interesting. And I can't stop typing once I start, clearly :P

...

There are two kinds of people I could see myself take a distance from due to a difference in opinion: 1) Friends and 2) people/groups/businesses I'm supporting in some way, possibly economically. Friends, because they are close to me and I let them behind my defences, if that makes sense. People I support, because it feels like that makes me associated with them and supportive of what they stand for.

(Co-workers, acquaintances, family members you must stand or just people I share my society with, I'm far more tolerant of... and more of at a distance to, natch)

I do lose respect for people who do or support things I find severely objectionable. You have to actively work to be rated "horrible", mind.

Otherwise being the nicest person in the world doesn't make up for stomping kittens for fun, or being a staunch supporter of the National Kitten-Stomping Party. On the more realistic side of hyperbole, there are opinions the most pleasant person could voice that would make me cut close contact with them, but those are opinions that are very close to me. I made a friend debating the Iraq war, I can live disagreeing with wildlife policies — I can live knowing my vegan friends think it's terrible of me to eat meat, for that sake. But if I found out someone was actively homophobic or transphobic, that'd be too close to be directly destructive for me: I can't have that in my daily life, I can't support it even remotely. Someone supporting a nationalist conservative party like Sverigedemokraterna, I would not want around nor appear to support. I steer away from people who express their hatred of women. To this day, I will never give money to Shell. And so on.

Those are my dealbreakers. Someone else might have others. In your example, an animal-rights person might keep the lives of polar bears that close to them and stop using EMG... and honestly, I can't see why they shouldn't. If they belive individual animal lives are that important, your recycling doesn't matter. Some issues do divide people, even after all the facts are collected.

...

To answer your last question: For friends, I would always rather know the truth. 'cause they're friends... or not, but I don't want false friends. For people I'm associated with professionally, I'd be just as happy if they'd keep up a professional facade and not voice their personal opinions in that area of their lives. I don't consider it dishonest, just... er, socially polite, I guess, esp. if the opinion really doesn't have an effect on anything in the pro part of their lives. Not that I say that any hypothetical professional (or you specifically, I guess) shouldn't voice opinions publically, but when that happens, I would have to relate to it, since I would know due to the pro person having voiced it in a public area... and so would everyone else. See: The "appear supportive of what they stand for" part.

[uminomamori.livejournal.com]

I don't like to talk about politics on LJ any more. I don't have energy to argue any more and there was a lot of de-friending going around last election. People offended me or I offended them. I was a member of some political communities and gained some interesting friends from that including a political journalist in France. Now my views have shifted to the other side but I still respect those people because I think issues are usually more complicated than just right and wrong.

At time I am not paying much attention to politics at all because I realize the more I pay attention to the news (which is mostly the political equivalent of celebrity tabloid gossip) I will further lose any respect for people I have to choose between way before the election.

If you were here in St. Paul protesting I might think you were nuts though. I don't mind if you talk about it. People for who politics are their entire life/identity are a real turn off for me but if you were one of them I certainly would have noticed a long time ago :)

[mersades.livejournal.com]

I could really care less what people's opinions are as long as they're respectful of anyone whom has an opinion that differs from his or her's. In fact, if a person can have an intelligent and respectful conversation with someone who has different views from them, the person tends to be more interesting to me! I like hearing different views from my own presented in a mature and insightful manner as it makes me think - hearing the same opinion just keeps me in the same old box. :)

[boogarshadow.livejournal.com]

To some people it does.

Some people cannot agree to disagree or even accept that other people may have a different opinion and that their opinion is not necessarily wrong.

You can believe however you want! I dont know enough about either wildlife issue to have a say in the matter. :)

I'm proud of you for living green! (Though I think you're nuts and scarily brave for living where you do..lol)
Cuz anything colder than sweatshirt weather is too cold for my arizona blood!